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Rucka lays it all out there. I think the Big Two really need to watch how they treat the people over there. At some point they are going to burn through everyone. I would think twice about working there if they don't let you have the tools to succeed. I understand not working there for moral reasons, but the Big Two don't want to pay more than they have to pay. Stopping creators from doing the best the can seems foolish if there is no reason for it. However I am hearing only half the story so maybe there is more to it.

Generally agree with the need for stronger editorial control. I was just suggesting that it would be easier with less titles and I would think that at some high number of titles it would be impossible. It probably should be possible with 52 but maybe it isn't.

My point 2 was close to a subset of point 1. To keep the complete universe together (as opposed to trying it out), I would be willing to buy a few titles that I am blah about. Generally for me, the more titles, the more I am blah about. At some point, too many blah to justify buying them just to get the whole picture. Keep the overall number small, and the number I don't like as much should be small as well. As noted, it is really a subset of number 1 but I am not doing much editing on these. As you can tell, much more stream of consciousness.




P.S. Just firing up the trade edition. Enjoying it as always. Thanks for all the hard work. I was looking at the sales estimate chart you do at CBR (I always do when I listen as it seems a good companion).

On the chart you have a single Mouse Guard entry in both comics and trades under publisher code "ARA" - however in your summary those numbers go to "Arcana Studio" and "Arcana Studios" respectively. I think that should be Archaia that does Mouse Guard. I like both publishers and wish their names weren't so close together. You do a ton of work for this so I don't want to appear ungrateful or like some nitpicky, pushy jerk. While it is more work for you which you are not doing as your day job, you might want to add a column to the summaries that gives the three letter code that you use. Thanks again.

P.P.S. Do collected editions hold their value as well? I never thought about them as collectibles as I do singles. I love collected editions for ease of storage and reading but curious to hear about their price fluctuations. I have heard errors or short print runs can raise the price but was unsure if those fluctuations hold over time. Thanks.

LA Rabbit wrote:Generally agree with the need for stronger editorial control.

I think it is a matter of needed better editorial but not necessarily stronger editorial control. Haven't we been hearing a lot of valid complaints from creators about editors trying to exert too much control over the creative content. The job of editorial is to get the best stories out of the creators within certain boundaries, not getting the creators to tell specific stories.

JohnMayo wrote:

LA Rabbit wrote:Generally agree with the need for stronger editorial control.

I think it is a matter of needed better editorial but not necessarily stronger editorial control. Haven't we been hearing a lot of valid complaints from creators about editors trying to exert too much control over the creative content. The job of editorial is to get the best stories out of the creators within certain boundaries, not getting the creators to tell specific stories.

Well, this is a delicate balance. On the one hand, you argue for more editorial control (or maybe just a different emphasis), otoh creators argue for more creative freedom and most especially freedom from capricious editorial decision making.

Shelly Bond is probably the best editor working today, imo. But she is now hamstrung by corporate policies that make it harder for her to do her job -- and I've no idea how she'd do in a super-hero universe.

I used to think Wacker was pretty good, but now I worry that he is just a process guy.

Trev wrote:On the one hand, you argue for more editorial control (or maybe just a different emphasis), otoh creators argue for more creative freedom and most especially freedom from capricious editorial decision making.

I have been talking about editorial being stronger at being editors/talent coordinators, not for them to exert more control over the stories. I'm in agreement that editors should be picking creators that can tell the desired kinds of stories and empower them to do so. Editors should be point out potential weaknesses in stories, not dictating plotlines.

Many of the names that come to mind for me as great editors are no longer editors: Mike Carlin, Mark Waid, Mark Grunwald, Marv Wolfman.

JohnMayo wrote:Many of the names that come to mind for me as great editors are no longer editors: Mike Carlin, Mark Waid, Mark Grunwald, Marv Wolfman.

Jim Shooter at one point had a policy that editors had to write or draw a book (depending on their background). I think that kind of practical experience and more importantly, stronger connection to the creative process and directly creating a book would benefit a lot of today's editors.

JohnMayo wrote:

Trev wrote:On the one hand, you argue for more editorial control (or maybe just a different emphasis), otoh creators argue for more creative freedom and most especially freedom from capricious editorial decision making.

I have been talking about editorial being stronger at being editors/talent coordinators, not for them to exert more control over the stories. I'm in agreement that editors should be picking creators that can tell the desired kinds of stories and empower them to do so. Editors should be point out potential weaknesses in stories, not dictating plotlines.

this is 'different emphasis'

LA Rabbit wrote: Enjoying this discussion quite a bit. Glad to see the board get lively. Thanks to Trev, Boshuda and John.

Great thread. I think I need to go on vacation more (or just post less) to get these things going

BobBretall wrote:

LA Rabbit wrote: Enjoying this discussion quite a bit. Glad to see the board get lively. Thanks to Trev, Boshuda and John.

Great thread. I think I need to go on vacation more (or just post less) to get these things going

You planted the seed with the how/why thread.

LA Rabbit wrote: P.P.S. Do collected editions hold their value as well? I never thought about them as collectibles as I do singles. I love collected editions for ease of storage and reading but curious to hear about their price fluctuations. I have heard errors or short print runs can raise the price but was unsure if those fluctuations hold over time. Thanks.

I've heard of some collected editions going for elevated $$, but it seems kind of weird to me. I'd think most people buying collected editions (regular ones, not something like a signed & #'d HC) are just interested in the story, so why would they pay a lot for a 1st print of a TPB?

I think $$ come into play for limited editions and things that go out of print (like the old Miracleman TPBs) and it's tough to get the story. Seems like that would make up a small % of all collected editions, though.

Thanks for the reply Bob. Maybe Chris can cash in his Flash trade with the error in it for big bucks. Enjoyed the new episode as always. Just a few comments/questions if you want:

1. When I say "waiting for the trade" that often means I will be waiting for the trade from the library, particularly with the more popular books that I just want to read once. Our library is pretty good about getting many trades. They have a few single issues but I never look at them. I don't know where libraries buy them from (Diamond or somewhere else) but I read most all of Flashpoint, Secret Invasion, the Fear Itself tie-ins and that sort of thing through the library. I do also get the Nobody, Underwater Welder, Persepholis, Bodyworld and your more "highbrow" comics that way as well.

2. Walking Dead is also smart to make the stuff break at similar points. I read the series via borrowing trades from my friend, library, and then alternate buying the new trades with the same friend (but giving him the trades). The show got my wife interested and the Absolutes were very cheap (easy to get 45% off or more on them). We got the first 2 absolutes but the third one is not cheap. So yesterday I pickup up the compendium that just came out and it left off at the next issue from the Absolute #2. No gap or duplication. Once she finishes that, we can move to trades (I think the next one is due in January). If you are a collector you would likely not want three different formats but for us to read it worked great.

3. I think Titan must use other distributors as well. I have the whole Charley's War run from them and I have seen that book in maybe only 2 stores. Not that I go to a million stores but over the last few years I have been to a good number and I just can't believe they can survive on Diamond alone. This is the first time I think I remember you guys mentioning them but obviously can't be sure (and would take far too long to figure that out).

4. What do you use as your basis for number of stores, if you use one at all. I have heard the number 3,000 but I can't remember from when or where. It might have been you guys, but someone once mentioned that some accounts may just be for people's personal use. Do you know of anyone that did that? When you and Bob were in So. Cal you probably could have fielded a large enough order together although if they work the discounts by volume it could have been tough, but you would get your books early. Also good if you are into high condition books as you have one less set of hands working the books. Working against that is you only have fewer copies to flip through but might have a better return policy against Diamond, don't know.

Thanks.

LA Rabbit wrote:4. What do you use as your basis for number of stores, if you use one at all. I have heard the number 3,000 but I can't remember from when or where. It might have been you guys, but someone once mentioned that some accounts may just be for people's personal use. Do you know of anyone that did that? When you and Bob were in So. Cal you probably could have fielded a large enough order together although if they work the discounts by volume it could have been tough, but you would get your books early. Also good if you are into high condition books as you have one less set of hands working the books. Working against that is you only have fewer copies to flip through but might have a better return policy against Diamond, don't know.

Diamond states in the data they send out each month on the sales statistics that if covers "over 3500 comic book specialty shops located in North America and around the world. The account base includes brick-and-mortar comic book specialty shops, Internet merchants, and other specialty stores. " I tend to go with an estimate of around 2,500 to 3,000 of what we would generally a functional comic book shop in the classic sense with new comics coming in each week, etc. Some accounts are for stores that occasionally get stuff from Diamond but aren't what we'd consider a typical comic book store.

In theory someone could open a personal account, Diamond actively discourages that and it is against the terms of service. Frankly, it works out better to use DCBS. Back when I was in my college years, I had an account with Bud Plant and got comics for myself and some friends. It saved us some money but it was a bit of a hassle collecting the money from the friends and getting the comics to the since they were at different colleges. Diamond later acquired Bud Plant. At some point, I might try to open an account with Diamond for occasional use mainly to get access to the retailer side of the Diamond website. But as far as getting my weekly comics, it just doesn't make sense for a solo collector or even a small group to go direct with Diamond. While I get enough to quality for the minimum discount through Diamond, I get a better discount through DCBS and they get to handle all of the logistics for me.

I think a major polarizing issue are crossovers. If you love a title and the characters involved it gives your favorite characters an additional title they're appearing in. It also lets them play with other characters, which is fun. On the other hand you either have to buy one or more additional titles you otherwise might not have.

The other options are to skip the issues of your title that crosses over, have only part of a crossover and therefore only part of a story, or drop the title altogether.

boshuda wrote:I think a major polarizing issue are crossovers. If you love a title and the characters involved it gives your favorite characters an additional title they're appearing in. It also lets them play with other characters, which is fun. On the other hand you either have to buy one or more additional titles you otherwise might not have.

The other options are to skip the issues of your title that crosses over, have only part of a crossover and therefore only part of a story, or drop the title altogether.

The conflicting aspects of a crossover are:
* I'd assume that publishers do them in order to try to get readers to buy additional titles, thus they WANT readers to buy more because of the crossover.

* As a reader, you may not want to buy more titles. You want to read your normal book & not feel like you're suddenly getting some incomplete story fragment because your favorite title got pulled into a crossover.

The challenge for the storytellers is telling a crossover chapter that is complete enough in itself so as to not irritate the reader who is just reading their normal title while being interesting enough to attempt to compel them to buy more parts of the crossover because you made the over-arching story seem to be just so darned interesting.

BobBretall wrote:The conflicting aspects of a crossover are:
* I'd assume that publishers do them in order to try to get readers to buy additional titles, thus they WANT readers to buy more because of the crossover.

* As a reader, you may not want to buy more titles. You want to read your normal book & not feel like you're suddenly getting some incomplete story fragment because your favorite title got pulled into a crossover.

The challenge for the storytellers is telling a crossover chapter that is complete enough in itself so as to not irritate the reader who is just reading their normal title while being interesting enough to attempt to compel them to buy more parts of the crossover because you made the over-arching story seem to be just so darned interesting.

No arguments here. I like crossovers, but I think I tend to lump guest-stars in and call them crossovers. Big difference, but for some reason in my head I think of them as the same thing. I very fondly remember reading a few runs of Spider-Man where he had a huge roster of guest stars (around the time McFarlane left adjective-less Spider-Man and that fantastic Sinister Six story by Erik Larsen ran, and around the same time in Amazing when Nova, Punisher, etc appeared). But these weren't cross-overs, they were just guest stars. I'm trying to recall some true cross overs I enjoyed as much and the only one I can come up with is I liked when X-Factor (I think this was the X-Factor issue) crossed over into Incredible Hulk back in PAD's initial run on both titles, back when Stroman was on X-Factor and Keown was on Hulk. As i was investigating these issues I realized not even they are a crossover, but I remembered the two-issue sideways crossover between Liefeld's X-Force and McFarlane's Spider-Man where Shatterstar stabbed Juggernaut in the eyes. I loved that one. Not sure if I would enjoy it as much anymore.

With regards to my response, I thought you guys were asking what polarized me as a reader when deciding whether to collect a title or not. But your response makes me think maybe I misunderstood, and you were instead looking for what polarized it from the publisher's perspective . Or maybe you didn't really care and just wanted to spark some discussion.

Polarizing item #2 for me:
Cover artists.
I think the publishers do them to get more eyes on the book by having a cover that could be a work of art on its own. Particularly when that image is used to sell the book. Sometimes Marvel even goes so far as to use that as the ONLY selling point of a book in Previews. Their use of CLASSIFIED in the summary blurb comes to mind.

OTOH, if a customer picks up a book with a beautiful painted cover expecting to see similar art throughout, but instead finds Joe Monkey finger-painted the interiors, the customer might put the book back down. I know I did that many times when I primarily bought my books in an LCS.